PROYECTO DB 1990

[ReySol24]

El hace 2 horas, brunino dijo:

The decision of CA and PA is linked to the value of the team in excel file. Inside you should find a table in a page in wich, for the nation you need, math formulas rebuild how many PA-10 or PA-9 players any team should have according the strength around 1992. For CA I used the age: a <20 player could have-6 (if not yet famous), a player >20 and <22 could have -7, and so on. Of course, if you know him and you know his strength, use your knowledge, but always respecting the strength of the team calculated in excel file.

Use without problems FM graphic configurator, is easy and safe.

Whoah! I'm starting to realize how great the job you did is!! I didn't pay attention to those files until your last message. I'm gonna check them out, and I'll write you back in case of doubt.

I discovered there're some "lost" players. Monchi in Sevilla F.C., for instance, remains as Director of Football when he was the second goalkeeper of the team in the early 90s. Thus, I have to change him from an executive position and modify his attributes points .

[ReySol24]

I have a couple of questions

First: Which are the minimun and maximun values for CA and PA?

I can't understand how they work. Most of the players have a CA over 100 points, no matter age or how skilled or famous they were. Of course, better players have higher CA levels.

But regarding PA, sometimes, its a negative number and, sometimes, a value little higher than the current points. For example, a player could have a CA=120 and PA=-9 and another one a CA=150 and a PA=175.

Does it make sense?? The first one gets worse and worse as he gets older whereas the second one improves their skills??

In a practical example, one missing player: Monchi (Sevilla).

Monchi was Sevilla's second goalkeeper, while Unzué was the principal one. Unzué values are: CA=145 and PA=168. Monchi wasn't as good as Unzué, so does it make sense for Monchi, CA=115 and PA=140??

Second: How the table for determining the final points of each team?

In, the table you made for Spanish La Liga (premier/first division), for instance, teams from 3rd position to 7th position are given -100 points than the previous team. Teams from 8th position to 13th position, are given -50 points. From 14th to 20th, -25 points. In the second division are given -100 points again.

I wanna rebuild the whole second division and I need to understand how that table works. Would you mind explain it to me? I'd be thankful if you could.

[brunino]

I'll try to explain how it woeks but, really, I made it almost ten years ago and I have to load my "far memory" ...

About first question ...

A negative number is a variable of the game; any "start" of a new game, the engine will fill up that variable with a defined number. -10 means that the engine will build a defined value between 180 and 200; in a new game that player could have a PA or CA, is the same, of 200, in another new game it could have 180. -9 means values between 160 and 180, and so on. In the first example you made is correct, because PA is higher of CA. CA=120 and PA=-9 means that in a game that player could have PA between 160 and 180. In the second example happens the same, CA<PA.

The example of Monchi is uncorrect, because Monchi was not in my DB, was missing. Take in mind that I deleted any original players with PA >140, all the players so strong, players of any nation, not only in the leagues I rebuilded. If I have a good memory, in the excel file of Spain Sevilla can have 11 great players with PA> 160, but I don't remember if was CA or PA. According to me Unzuè was one of them (PA>160), so Monchi must have a PA like you defined. According to me is important that you respect the maximum number of great players in the sheet "PLAYERS" in excel, because I made many and many tests for any league modified like an observer, without playing directly, and the final result after one year was not far from the strength level of teams that you can read in history of sheet "TEAMS", in the five years shown. No one in the net, in any forum in which I subscribed this DB, suggested me wrong level of teams, so I think that formulas are OK.

About second question ...

Look at "TEAMS" sheet. I transformed the position in the historic real league in a number. For any rebuilded league is the same. Look at yhe column J, 1992/93. I fixed the maximum number at 2300 (the winner) and the lowest at 700 (the worse relegated). Why 2300 and 700? It's arbitrary, it's not important. I choose a big number for having a large "nouance" of math results, but I could choose between 200 and 50, or in another way. Going forward and back in years, that values reduce a litlle bit. The global sum of the five years defines how much strong was any team in that long period, focused on 1992/93. In those five years there were teams involved in "premiera" even if in 1992/93 were in "secunda"; this is the reason for wich you find Toledo, Compostela and many more. And this is the way for which the real level of strength on log period is respected; for example, Tenerife had a good result in 1992/93 but only that year, before and after was a bad team. I decied to look at history for respecting this data. Another example; Athletic Madrid decreased following years and I had to take care about this reducing a little bit its value using formulas. Those formulas applied to the external league give them a chance to be promoted in primere during the first year of the game, like in history really could be happened. If you look at the sheet "LEAGUES", I had to move some teams from lower leagues to the primera for rebuilding it (green colour), and manually relegate the teams in 2008 DB to the lower (red colour) for respecting the number of teams in any league (right part of the sheet). The relegated teams can have a new CA for the team if in five years history. If you want to rebuild the secunda, according to me you have to reply to this answer: how much can be strong the winning team of the secunda respect to a team of primera. if you think that usually the winner of secunda is strong like the 10th of primera, or the 12th, you can fix for the wiiner team the same maximum number. How much can be the strength difference, usually, between the winner of primera and the worse? Fix the lower number and create a "stair" of value for any intermediate position. Then you shold look at history of five years for any team in secunda in 1992/93 and rebuild the "strength position" for any of them, like I made for teams in primera. You could create a new sheet in my excel file named "SECUNDA", copy everything from sheet "TEAMS", with formulas, define the list of team with historic position, and then change only the values in the "graduated stair" which fix the numbers (rows 33-55 and columns H-L). You should find a new number in column Q.

However, there are some formulas I don't remind anymore, we sould have time to rebuild the structure.

[ReySol24]

El hace 11 horas, brunino dijo:

I'll try to explain how it woeks but, really, I made it almost ten years ago and I have to load my "far memory" ...

About first question ...

A negative number is a variable of the game; any "start" of a new game, the engine will fill up that variable with a defined number. -10 means that the engine will build a defined value between 180 and 200; in a new game that player could have a PA or CA, is the same, of 200, in another new game it could have 180. -9 means values between 160 and 180, and so on. In the first example you made is correct, because PA is higher of CA. CA=120 and PA=-9 means that in a game that player could have PA between 160 and 180. In the second example happens the same, CA<PA.

The example of Monchi is uncorrect, because Monchi was not in my DB, was missing. Take in mind that I deleted any original players with PA >140, all the players so strong, players of any nation, not only in the leagues I rebuilded. If I have a good memory, in the excel file of Spain Sevilla can have 11 great players with PA> 160, but I don't remember if was CA or PA. According to me Unzuè was one of them (PA>160), so Monchi must have a PA like you defined. According to me is important that you respect the maximum number of great players in the sheet "PLAYERS" in excel, because I made many and many tests for any league modified like an observer, without playing directly, and the final result after one year was not far from the strength level of teams that you can read in history of sheet "TEAMS", in the five years shown. No one in the net, in any forum in which I subscribed this DB, suggested me wrong level of teams, so I think that formulas are OK.

I think I'll need to read twice the second part, so I'm gonna leave my questions for later.

I'm pursuing two different objectives here: understanding what you did and learning how to use it for my own DBs?

According with what you said, it seems better to choose a negative value for PA, since the game will decide which value it will be, than given 20 or 30 extra points over CA. Is that correct?

The main issue here remains the same: how to give a correct number of point for CA?

Well-known players represent not a big deal... but lesser famous ones are a problem.

Monchi, for example, means a problem. I don't know how good goalkeeper he was, and I wanna respect your work at the same time. Ok? Let's say CA=120 is correct. Then, will be correct PA=135 or PA=-2??

I'm also trying to write a formula to determine how many points should be given to a player taking into consideration two parameters: age and international caps.

The first part of the formula will be: =IF(Age<22;RANDBETWEEN(40;100);IF(Age>32;RANDBETWEEN(100;160);RANDBETWEEN(120;180))

The second part of the formula will be:

=IF(Caps<5;RANDBETWEEN(110;160);IF(Caps>20;RANDBETWEEN(140;190);RANDBETWEEN(120;170))

The resulting CA will be the AVERAGE value.

What do you think?

[ReySol24]

@brunino, Would you mind giving me a hand in choosing players for the Italy's national team? Here's the full explanation (in Spanish): https://www.fmsite.net/forums/forum/178-descargas-football-manager-2008/?do=add

In a nutshell, players should having been born between 1972 and 1982 and having been played at least one match with their national team.

[brunino]

El hace 14 horas, ReySol24 dijo:

According with what you said, it seems better to choose a negative value for PA, since the game will decide which value it will be, than given 20 or 30 extra points over CA. Is that correct?

The main issue here remains the same: how to give a correct number of point for CA?

Well-known players represent not a big deal... but lesser famous ones are a problem.

Monchi, for example, means a problem. I don't know how good goalkeeper he was, and I wanna respect your work at the same time. Ok? Let's say CA=120 is correct. Then, will be correct PA=135 or PA=-2??

I'm also trying to write a formula to determine how many points should be given to a player taking into consideration two parameters: age and international caps.

The first part of the formula will be: =IF(Age<22;RANDBETWEEN(40;100);IF(Age>32;RANDBETWEEN(100;160);RANDBETWEEN(120;180))

The second part of the formula will be:

=IF(Caps<5;RANDBETWEEN(110;160);IF(Caps>20;RANDBETWEEN(140;190);RANDBETWEEN(120;170))

The resulting CA will be the AVERAGE value.

What do you think?

Yes, is correct, I think is the better solution, it gives to the game a greater unpredictability, any human player finds different solutions into any savegame.

Abouit Monchi problem ... According to me, if you don't know his real strength in 1992, you can use negative numbers also for CA, for example CA=-6 and PA=-7 if he is under 26 years old (for a goalkeeper this is an usaul age in which he had yet express his own potentiality, but this is not a fixed rule, and FM engine takes care about this, 24 years for other kinds of players). Remember ... -10 = 180/200, -9 = 160/180, -8 = 140/160, -7 = 120/140, -6 = 100/120, -5 = 80/100, -4 = 60/80, -3 = 40/60, -2 = 20/40 and -1 = 0/20. What can happen in following my example for Monchi? In a game you find CA=100 and PA =140, in another game same CA and PA, Mochi could only decrese his ability.

Don't forget also this rule. In this DB any attribute player is set to 0, absolutely random, so also "injury proneness". In a game you could have a great young player with CA=120 and PA=200 or -10 but "injury proneness 20, a fragile player; he could play few matches any season and had bat trainings because facilities of the team are poor or trainers have a low quality. In this case that great player could arrive only to 140 or 150, no much more. If you use an "ingame editor" while playing, you could see the growth or the decrease of PA year by year and understanding what I'm saying. PA expresses only a potentiality, not the real value of a player; anything could happen to his life like in real world.

Good idea to build a formula for creating an automatic CA, but you could insert manually the new CA in many many records ... an hard job to me.

About the question you made about players for the italian national team, I don't understand what you mean because link suggested in not functioning.

[ReySol24]

El hace 8 horas, brunino dijo:

Yes, is correct, I think is the better solution, it gives to the game a greater unpredictability, any human player finds different solutions into any savegame.

Abouit Monchi problem ... According to me, if you don't know his real strength in 1992, you can use negative numbers also for CA, for example CA=-6 and PA=-7 if he is under 26 years old (for a goalkeeper this is an usaul age in which he had yet express his own potentiality, but this is not a fixed rule, and FM engine takes care about this, 24 years for other kinds of players). Remember ... -10 = 180/200, -9 = 160/180, -8 = 140/160, -7 = 120/140, -6 = 100/120, -5 = 80/100, -4 = 60/80, -3 = 40/60, -2 = 20/40 and -1 = 0/20. What can happen in following my example for Monchi? In a game you find CA=100 and PA =140, in another game same CA and PA, Mochi could only decrese his ability.

Don't forget also this rule. In this DB any attribute player is set to 0, absolutely random, so also "injury proneness". In a game you could have a great young player with CA=120 and PA=200 or -10 but "injury proneness 20, a fragile player; he could play few matches any season and had bat trainings because facilities of the team are poor or trainers have a low quality. In this case that great player could arrive only to 140 or 150, no much more. If you use an "ingame editor" while playing, you could see the growth or the decrease of PA year by year and understanding what I'm saying. PA expresses only a potentiality, not the real value of a player; anything could happen to his life like in real world.

Good idea to build a formula for creating an automatic CA, but you could insert manually the new CA in many many records ... an hard job to me.

About the question you made about players for the italian national team, I don't understand what you mean because link suggested in not functioning.

This was a very useful piece of advice!! Thank you very much, @brunino!

If I can set both CA and PA to ten different numbers, then I'd be easier to build a full DB.

I'll will continue working on the formulas, since I think age and international caps could be the most determining parameters to define CA and PA. In particular, in those cases were I don't really know how many points give to a player.

The second issue... This summer's gonna celebrate an international championship of national teams which players are gonna be retired footballers between 35 and 45 years old. I wanna build a DB based on this championship, called Star-Sixes. Italy is one of the national teams I've chosen, but I'm having some trouble to find 23 Italian retired players born between 1972 and 1982. Could you give a hand to complete the list? The correct link is the following one: 

Grazie mille per tutti, @brunino!

[bertihispano]

buenas este proyecto sigue en pie? me acabo de registrar y vi esta maravilla... podria colaborar en algo?

[brunino]

No, esto proyecto no es en pie mas, desculpa mio idioma ma yo soy italiano y no ablo bien espanol.